Nintendo 3DS

Miyamoto-san really persevered with Paper Mario this time. Exactly what was he particular about?

Aside from wanting us to change the atmosphere a lot, there were two main things that Miyamoto-san said from the start of the project—"It's fine without a story, so do we really need one?" and "As much as possible, complete it with only characters from the Super Mario world.

That's a difficult task. In some ways that would be the exact opposite direction from recent games in the series.

Yeah. With regard to the story, we did a survey over the Super Paper Mario²⁴ game in Club Nintendo²⁵, and not even 1% said the story was interesting. A lot of people said that the Flip²⁶ move for switching between the 3D and 2D dimensions was fun. 24. Super Paper Mario: An action-adventure game released for the Wii console in April 2007.

25. Club Nintendo: A free, members-only point service run by Nintendo, begun in Japan in 2003, and 2008 in the US. When members purchase applicable software or game systems, register the serial number on the Internet, and respond to post-game surveys, they earn points and can exchange a corresponding number of points for special, not-for-sale items.

26. Flip: A move that Mario can use to switch between 2D and 3D maps with a single button.

That project came together because of that idea. Kudo-san, you were in charge of the script, so what did you think about whether a story was really necessary or not?

I originally saw it in a way that's similar to Miyamoto-san. Personally I think all we need is to have an objective to win the boss battle at the end of the game. I didn't think we necessarily needed a lengthy story like in an RPG. Instead, we looked at the characteristics of a portable game that can be played little by little in small pieces and packed in lots of little episodes and ideas. I always did like putting in little ideas, so I actually enjoyed it.

It was just what Kudo-san wanted.

Yeah.

When it comes to characters, in the session of "Iwata Asks" covering Super Mario Galaxy, Miyamoto-san said that he was finally able to put the essence of Mario into words for the first time.

Yes, he did.

He says that a Mario-like design follows from function, so when something otherwise comes into the mix, it doesn't feel right.

You understand the character from its design—like it has spikes, so stepping on it will hurt.

When people vaguely sense something like that and can use logic to explain it, they want to share it. So talking about a Mario-like design might have been a big deal to Miyamoto-san at the time! (laughs)

But being unable to use new characters is pretty strict. Of course, we could not make any new enemy characters, and as for allies among the Super Mario characters, there's really only Toad in various colors!

But personally, the more restrictions there were, the more excited I got. They may look the same, but we put in some elements in which their personalities are slightly different, so you can tell the difference and you think, "Hey! Are you that Toad from back then?" Toward the end of development, I could feel that I became one with Toad! (laughs)

You can't forget them, like when they have a bad personality, even though their faces are the same.

(laughs)

In addition to red, there are blue and green Toads. However, we held all but the red one in reserve, so we had to think carefully over when to use them. When we decided to put the ranger²⁷ in the forest, there was a weird vibe, like, "Green Toad…you're up!" (laughs) 27. Ranger: Some who protects the forest, as in a Park Ranger.

Creatively, restraints aren't necessarily a bad thing. A lot of new attractive features come out of that.

That's right. At first, we were making a lot of individual allies as in a regular RPG, but when we decided to focus on stickers, in order to make a clear change with previous games in the series, it was like we started all over again by throwing out the system—including those characters—that we had made up to that point.

You purposefully threw out the basic RPG structure.

Yes. We decided to make it so that players would face stronger opponents by throwing out the whole concept of experience points and levels in favor of gradually gathering stronger stickers.

I had actually been thinking for a long time that I wanted to get rid of the RPG experience points. In the Freshly-Picked Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland²⁸ game, which Kudo-san and I worked on together, the player-character didn't develop at all. We adopted a system whereby they solved everything with money.

This time, we decided to do everything with stickers. We decided on a system whereby in battle, instead of attack commands, you fight by using the stickers you have gathered in the field or bought in town. 28. Freshly-Picked Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland: An RPG released for the Nintendo DS system in September 2006. This game was not released in North America.

That's why we call it a "sticker battle adventure."

Right. The stickers have all kinds of offensive abilities, so sometimes you can easily win by thinking about applicability to certain enemies and using them in combination.

I see.

In addition, when it came to players creating their own stickers, we were fortunate to be able to use a program that a different group within IS was experimenting with. Like Teapot and Cat-o-Luck.

Teapot and Cat-o-Luck?

Using the Wii console, IS was experimenting with a program for throwing a 3D object at a wall and having it stick and turn into a picture, and they let us use it. If you take a 3D "thing" that you find in the field and throw it at a wall, you can make a "thing sticker.", but at first the team was really against it.

Why was that?

We made 3D "things" look like real objects. Tanabe-san was constantly saying, "That incongruity is great!" But we didn't know how to handle it and didn't understand at all at first. Normally, the Kettle and Beckoning Cat wouldn't seem to fit into the Super Mario world.

That's serious. (laughs)

But I had a hunch that the incongruity of a real kettle would serve as a hook. If you took things that already looked like they belonged in the Super Mario world and turned them into stickers, there wouldn't be much of a change, right? I showed that to Miyamoto-san, and he was like, "I guess that's all right." (laughs)

(laughs) But after all the criticism you'd taken, you must have been hesitant.

Yeah. What at first was incomprehensible—like, "Why a kettle?"—is now like "This is it!" (laughs)

When it came to checking the gameworld, the hurdle was really high for the Character Design Group.²⁹ Like for tower murals in the desert. But maybe Igata-san should tell you about that. 29. Character Design Group: Part of the Software Development & Design Department of the Software Planning & Development Division at Nintendo. It produces and supervises Nintendo characters.

Yeah. Let's see… World 2 has a desert and tower, and in order to make an impression of ancient ruins, we discussed putting in a mural. And to make it look more that way, we drew Toad and Koopa Troopas that were taller than usual.

There's a human like Koopa Troopa with long arms and legs that comes along on all fours. It's really creepy.

When I had that checked, they said it was "gross," and we thought, "Yes!"

At first, we took that as praise, but unfortunately, they meant exactly what they said!

(laughs)

After that, we put forth all kinds of designs, but the more Super Mario-like it became, the less it seemed ancient, and if we got realistic, it turned out to be something totally different.

When they were realistic, those Koopa Troopas just looked like shiitake mushrooms!

Yeah. (laughs) In the end, while we made various designs, we showed the original design to Miyamoto-san, and he was happy, like, "Why don't you make it even more disgusting?" So in the end the original design was ok.

That was surprising. We were like, "You never know until you show Miyamoto-san!" We felt our way along like that.

I suppose that's true. (laughs) But it seems like a part of you enjoys putting something edgy out there and seeing how much you can get away with.

No, there were times when Miyamoto-san has really gotten angry at me! (laughs) Like about treatment of Bowser. But the Super Mario games have an orthodox lineage that Miyamoto-san thought up as its creator. So while Paper Mario, as part of that, must preserve certain things, I think there is a point to tackling new and unusual things.