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MrCheeto

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THOT.jpg

It's finally happened. I tracked down the exact machine I wanted and the price was where I wanted to be.

$130 in my town.

Operation Norge: A project to "freeze" this Mac around the Leopard era. The priority is Leopard ONLY and the apps available for it, including Aperture and CS4. The word "Snow" is not allowed in reference to this project. Pardus gang ONLY.

Here's the specs:
2.26GHZ 8-Core
8GB RAM
1x2TB 7200RPM HDD
GeForce GT120
Processor tray: J5930-

It is currently running El Capitan. Boots, runs, does all it needs to do! Except run Leopard...

Where do I start? Does El Capitan load a firmware or boot loader that breaks Leopard booting? I have a drive that's already loaded with Leopard but it stops loading at the "Loading System\Library\Extensions.mkext...". It's like 5 or 6 lines in verbose before it stops indefinitely.

I'm currently in the process of a move, but I do plan to post a video of the complete project and hopefully edit it within Leopard.

Future Upgrades:
2.93GHZ used CPU swap
ATI Radeon HD4870 (in addition to the GT120)
32GB RAM
PCI SSD install

Thanks all! It only took me 14-years to get here!
 
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Soba

macrumors 6502
May 28, 2003
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Rochester, NY
Where do I start? Does El Capitan load a firmware or boot loader that breaks Leopard booting? I have a drive that's already loaded with Leopard but it stops loading at the "Loading Library .mkext" or something like that. It's like 5 or 6 lines in verbose before it stops indefinitely.

What version of Leopard are you trying to boot? You will need Leopard 10.5.6 build 9G3553 (a special build that shipped with this system) or later to boot a Mac Pro 4,1. If you have a retail version of 10.5.6 or any earlier version of Leopard, it won't work.

If you don't have 10.5.6, one solution is to attach your Mac Pro's hard drive to an older Mac that supports whatever version of Leopard you have and then update it to 10.5.8 (the final version of Leopard). Then reinstall the drive in your 4,1 and it should (hopefully) boot with no problems.

(Edited to be more specific about version requirements.)
 
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MrCheeto

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I installed 10.5.6, but you just gave me the idea to try to update to the latest version and see what that yields. Wish me luck.

There’s about sixteen Macs here, but only One can run Leopard besides the Mac Pro
>.<
 

MrCheeto

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What version of Leopard are you trying to boot? You will need Leopard 10.5.6 (or later) to boot a Mac Pro 4,1. If you have an earlier version than this, it won't work.

If you don't have 10.5.6, one solution is to attach your Mac Pro's hard drive to an older Mac that supports whatever version of Leopard you have and then update it to 10.5.8 (the final version of Leopard). Then reinstall the drive in your 4,1 and it should (hopefully) boot with no problems.

Absolute. Hero.

This alone is worth the $130.
 

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Soba

macrumors 6502
May 28, 2003
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Rochester, NY
Absolute. Hero.

This alone is worth the $130.
Very glad you got it working!

To follow up on my post, I dug a little deeper and I believe the 4,1 shipped with a special build of 10.5.6 (9G3553), so a retail disc of 10.5.6 is unlikely to work. Any version of 10.5.7 or 10.5.8 should boot a 4,1 as you discovered.

Have fun with your system. Don't forget to run Software Update again (assuming it still works!) on your Mac Pro.

(Also edited my post above to add more specifics.)
 
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Amethyst1

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Oct 28, 2015
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PCI SSD install
A PCIe SSD needs to use the AHCI protocol, such as Apple's SSUAX, SSUBX or Samsung's XP941. Leopard can't grok NVMe SSDs.

To follow up on my post, I dug a little deeper and I believe the 4,1 shipped with a special build of 10.5.6 (9G3553), so a retail disc of 10.5.6 is unlikely to work. Any version of 10.5.7 or 10.5.8 should boot a 4,1 as you discovered.
Yep, I was going to suggest that too.
 

MrCheeto

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Soba, thanks a ton. I was starting to suspect an issue with the version but I kept confirming the decimals but not the build number. I plugged my MacBook into the Mac Pro using Target Disk mode, booted into Leopard and installed the updates! They came straight from Apple’s server in the Software Update app.

A PCIe SSD needs to use the AHCI protocol, such as Apple's SSUAX, SSUBX or Samsung's XP941. Leopard can't grok NVMe SSDs.

So even if a Sonnet card says in its manual that it is compatible with 10.5, there is no way to actually boot to this version of the OS via PCIe?
F2CAA799-997E-4B50-B40B-09F89D7335E7.jpeg


As well, what is the FASTEST (in reality as opposed to theoretical) input-output method for Leopard?

As far as I can tell, there was NEVER support for USB 3.0 or Thunderbolt under Leopard. So if I want to work on media using a RAID for storage...I guess the 1Gb Ethernet is it? I can’t think of anything actually faster from that era.
 
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Amethyst1

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Oct 28, 2015
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So even if a Sonnet card says in its manual that it is compatible with 10.5, there is no way to actually boot to this version of the OS via PCIe?
That Sonnet card is just a PCIe SATA controller card with a standard 2.5" SATA III SSD on top of it. Nothing special. :) But that's not what I mean.

What I'm talking about are SSDs with a native PCIe interface (since SATA is bottlenecking SSDs pretty badly), such as the Samsung XP941 (shown here with the PCIe adapter necessary to install in a Mac Pro's PCIe slot). They don't use a SATA connection and are much faster than SATA SSDs. They use either the AHCI or NVMe specification to talk to the host.

Leopard has an AHCI driver (which isn't surprising since AHCI is also used for SATA drives), so PCIe AHCI SSDs like the Samsung XP941 should work just fine, including as a boot drive.

HOWEVER: The vast majority of PCIe SSDs use the NVMe specification designed just for them. Leopard doesn't have a NVMe driver (a universal NVMe driver only came with High Sierra) so it simply won't see those SSDs.

As well, what is the FASTEST (in reality as opposed to theoretical) input-output method for Leopard?
For internal drives: PCIe AHCI SSDs, followed by SATA and SAS.

As far as I can tell, there was NEVER support for USB 3.0 or Thunderbolt under Leopard. So if I want to work on media using a RAID for storage...I guess the 1Gb Ethernet is it? I can’t think of anything actually faster from that era.
That's easy. :)

For external drives:
  • eSATA (SATA rigged up for use with external drives): up to 6 Gbps.
  • Fibre Channel
  • SAS: not sure how fast controller cards with support for Leopard can go, but 3 Gbps at minimum.
 
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MrCheeto

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Leopard has an AHCI driver (which isn't surprising since AHCI is also used for SATA drives), so PCIe AHCI SSDs like the Samsung XP941 should work just fine, including as a boot drive.
fb7.gif








It's too powerful!

I'm glad you know exactly what somebody like me is looking for! It would have taken many many all-nighters of research to begin to touch what I just read here. That period-review just got me excited when I was nearly losing hope.

I found an SM951 AHCI which they claimed is faster than the XP941. I am buying used for $50, is there any way to know the amount of use it's seen?

It is incredibly hard to find NON NVMe blades. The NOS ones are... well it's just laughable that something so outmoded can be listed at such prices. The audacity.

So here's the current plan:

PCIe 4 ? Faster external connection card?
PCIe 3 M.2 512GB boot drive
PCIe 2 GT120 GPU
PCIe 1 Radeon 4870 GPU

So your explanation of fast external connections leaves me with more questions. Let me explain the purpose of the external drives and hopefully somebody has already been there.


Mac Pro:
One SATA drive just as a "buffer" internally, like a manual swap space
One M.2 boot drive

RAID bay:
Striped for max practical throughput

The goal is to make the Pro an ingestion bay. All data can be thrown into the RAID via the Pro. Old hard drives, SSD's, Thumbdrives. Plug it in then dump to RAID.

Then, the data is used in several ways on the network.

The Mac Pro uses the data for CS4, Lightroom, Aperture, Final Cut etc. under Leopard. So it needs to have quick seamless access to the networked data like video and large RAW photos.

As well, there will be several Macs ranging from about 2008 to 2022 that will access the data. The 2022 M1 is used for the same work as the Mac Pro but in modern capacities. Again, with the M1 I'd like a pretty reasonable throughput on the networked data. I have Cat5e over Thunderbolt already.

So the point here is what is a reasonable real-world solution, as opposed to theoretical throughputs, for quickly dumping data from the Pro and being able to reasonably rely on the networked data for smooth editing and general creative workflow?

Just kind of throwing it all out there to see if somebody's had to do this before. I'll be moving for the next three weeks or so but once I'm done, I plan to really dig in!
 
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Amethyst1

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Oct 28, 2015
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I found an SM951 AHCI which they claimed is faster than the XP941. I am buying used for $50, is there any way to know the amount of use it's seen?
You could look at the SMART values; see here. An interesting indicator would be the amount of terabytes written (TBW) but I don't think the SMART values list that in plain sight.

It is incredibly hard to find NON NVMe blades.
AHCI blades were a bit of a stop-gap solution until NVMe blades were ready. HOWEVER... (I love these howevers :D)

... Apple used AHCI blades extensively, prominently in the 2013-2017 MacBook Air, Late 2013-2015 Retina MacBook Pro and Late 2013 Mac Pro. If you search for SSUAX or SSUBX on eBay you'll find them. SSUBXs are preferred since they're faster and consistently use four PCIe lanes (PCIe 3.0 ×4). Some SSUAX drives apparently use only two PCIe lanes (PCIe 3.0 ×2). Since the 2009 Mac Pro has PCIe 2.0, using two lanes limits theoretical throughput to ≈1000 MB/s. You'll just need an adapter to go from their custom interface to PCIe; these can also be found on eBay.

The SM951 also uses four PCIe lanes (PCIe 3.0 ×4), so that's good.

RAID bay:
Striped for max practical throughput
As you say "bay", I assume these drives are to be installed internally in the Mac Pro? Or are you going to put them in an external box?

As well, there will be several Macs ranging from about 2008 to 2022 that will access the data.
So these will be networked to the Mac Pro and access the RAID through it? If so, 1 Gbps Ethernet is the limit ... unless there are 10 Gbps Ethernet cards that come with drivers for Leopard.
 
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MrCheeto

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That point about Apple using AHCI is indeed very interesting, and just in time to prevent me pressing Buy! I’ll let you know what I find out there!

As you say "bay", I assume these drives are to be installed internally in the Mac Pro? Or are you going to put them in an external box?

Sorry I mean I will have a RAID device, either a stand-alone networked array or by using one of my many retired Macs. I don’t want to say that I’ve committed to anything since I want to keep my protocol/connector types open.
 
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MrCheeto

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Doesn't work for 10.5, but I will use it on my other OS. Excellent tip!

This may as well be Amethyst's project because he's walked me through most of my questions up to this point. I took your research on SSD's and made some interesting finds. Mine should be here in about a week, then I'll reveal what I dug up :) He also mentioned using an ACTIVE Mini-DP 1.1 to HDMI adapter, which I bet would alleviate my awful graphics lag on my TV. Well, that or I need to get an actual display for this.

So while I'm here, does anybody have any quirky mods they can suggest? I've heard of the SATA ports for the SuperDrives being eSATA. Is this true for the 4,1? Has anybody put something other than an Airport card in the miniPCIe slot? How about miniPCIe to internal USB? What do you do with the almost useless SATA 2.0 bays if not using them for storage? I won't have any spinning disks in this machine so lots of room for...something.

Now what to do with that last x4 slot... Of course, wondering if the performance of the SSD will be effected if I put it in slot 3 and something else into slot 4. I've read several of the lanes are shared with one of the x4 slots.
 
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MrCheeto

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I'm proud to say that after 14-years...

Posted from my Mac Pro running Leopard.

Obviously, I didn't do this myself. More parts in the mail and will post updates as they come. Full write-up in the form of a video coming.

I can't express how good it feels to use my modern Sony cam and be able to take the RAW, export to TIFF, and almost fluidly scroll through dozens at a time. Aperture will be my next major purchase.

I tried opening the SAME TIFF files (100+ images, each 140MB) in both High Sierra Preview and Leopard Preview. High Sierra hurt. I am certain it requires me to use the new AFS format, so that will be worth testing in the future. Leopard displayed the first image in Preview on the first bounce, and I could almost immediately browse the photos. Pop-in (displaying a low-res image while the high-res loads in) is no worse than on my M1 Max MBP.

Fantastic machine.

1109112-ce431e5654b53d3295fae7ad2b2a1443.jpg
 

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OldMacPro2

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I just upgraded my cMP 3,1 to dual E5472 CPUs today.

Any chance this would run on it?
 

MrCheeto

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The temptation of Snow Leopard would be too much for me.
I've used so many versions of OS X, from Cheetah to today, and nothing can pull me from 10.5. I use others, but I must have at least one dedicated Leopard machine.

You've got a 4,1 running Westmere CPU's. Would you be willing to test to see if you could install a "patched" version of Leopard on it? AFAIK, there are, for instance, Hackintosh builds which run successfully on Westmere. I believe it would work so long as you disable the CPU identifier.

If somebody could confirm this, I'd be looking for the X5680's right now. It would kick ass to run 10.5 on twelve cores, but to dual-boot High Sierra as well is like sweet Vasoline. It's not a big deal, but I gotta know. Worst case, I buy a pair of X5570's 2.93Ghz (Nehalem) for $20 just to get the better single-thread performance and end it there.
 
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tsialex

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I've used so many versions of OS X, from Cheetah to today, and nothing can pull me from 10.5. I use others, but I must have at least one dedicated Leopard machine.

You've got a 4,1 running Westmere CPU's. Would you be willing to test to see if you could install a "patched" version of Leopard on it? AFAIK, there are, for instance, Hackintosh builds which run successfully on Westmere. I believe it would work so long as you disable the CPU identifier.

If somebody could confirm this, I'd be looking for the X5680's right now. It would kick ass to run 10.5 on twelve cores, but to dual-boot High Sierra as well is like sweet Vasoline. It's not a big deal, but I gotta know. Worst case, I buy a pair of X5570's 2.93Ghz (Nehalem) for $20 just to get the better single-thread performance and end it there.
Don't forget that Westmere Xeons don't work with MP41 firmwares, this is your main issue.

A reconstruction service can generate fully upgraded MP51 firmwares and a cleaned MP41 B08 firmware, the last early-2009 Mac Pro firmware that was never available outside of Apple factory refurbs, if you ever want to go back to a factory MP41 firmware and Nehalem Xeons.
 
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zedex

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Oct 21, 2018
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I deeply admire your goal of using a super fast and efficient macOS combined with modern tech for lightning fast performance. HOWEVER..... I'm with @jscipione - there is a lot lost / gained between leopard and snow leopard.

In snow leopard you can have native Westmeres + 96GB ram @1333 (not 1066)
In snow leopard you can have a CALDIGIT FASTA with PLX switch in SLOT 4 giving you driver supported USB 3 (x2) and eSATA (x2) ports.
In snow leopard you can have a FUSION-IO ioScale 3.2TB PCIe SSD in SLOT 3 giving you driver supported NVMe MLC Flash block storage for faster RAW imports and previews.
In snow leopard you can have an OS agnostic HIGHPOINT SSD7103 (or equivalent) PCIe 2.0 x16 HBA in SLOT 2 giving you the ability to pack up to four (4) Samsung SM951 AHCI Version PCIe SSDs in to one slot and run all four at max speed concurrently (6000mbps in RAID 0).
graphics in slot 1 is a minefield due to the absence of 4K in any card architectures available back then. go with your GT-120 or get the QUADRO 4000 MAC (Fermi) if you want the best compatible card of that time.

SOME OTHER NOTES YOU NEED TO THINK ABOUT.....

SSUBX is the SM951 with different pinning and native TRIM
SSUAX is the XP941 with different pinning and native TRIM

Leopard and Snow Leopard have no TRIM support at all. This presents an issue with no obvious solution.

The "superdrive" bays are not special (or eSATA). You have 6 standard [22-pin] SATA II interfaces known as BAYS 1-4, UPPER and LOWER. The South Bridge I/O architecture provides for a shared maximum throughput of 780 mbps (PCIe 2.0 x2 equivalent). If you install 5x 4TB HDD in RAID 5, you can transfer between your PCIe fast storage and your SATA II safe storage at typical sustained speeds of 620 mbps (lower than 780 because of the parity stream).

Also - you may need SOFTRAID software to setup RAID arrays of more than 2 disks. I think Apple RAID in Snow Leopard can do multiple disks (up to 4) in stripe [RAID0] or mirror [RAID1] but SOFTRAID is required for RAID5 configurations.

Initially I was very excited to learn that there are lots of options for the mini-PCIe slot. But once I learned that it was constrained by a PCIe 1.0 (x1) lane specification, I realised that upgrade options were weak. It *might* be worth putting in another SATA port BUT it is STILL a part of the South Bridge shared maximum. An internal USB 3 header would be constrained to the link width maximum of 195 mbps.

I can see that 'gigabit' ethernet really means max data transfer speeds of 195 mbps. I'm very weak when it comes to networking performance and terminology but I do know that you can purchase macOS compatible ATTO Celerity 4GB/s Fibre Channel PCIe cards on eBay very cheaply. If 'fibre channel' and 'ethernet' are interchangeable terms then you will be able to increase this transfer speed between networked devices up to 780 mbps.

Keep breaking the speed barriers and taking screenshots. I've long suspected that old adobe software on old OS X versions ran a lot faster than what we're working with today.
 
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MrCheeto

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Don't forget that Westmere Xeons don't work with MP41 firmwares, this is your main issue.
Of course there is no work-around with the firmware constraint, and I know exactly who to come to should I find that Leopard will work on Westmere!

I'm with @jscipione - there is a lot lost / gained between leopard and snow leopard.
Leopard is the OS that made me switch, with help from Vista. I was so eager and excited for Snow Leopard that I was running a beta the second I could get my hands on it. Then it was released and my memory is only trouble from there. Incongruent OS, REMOVING functions, old software not being updated for compatibility, and so many bugs that have, to this day, not been resolved.

When I switched to Leopard, I felt like I was moving smoother than a high-fiber turd. Things worked as expected and were consistent throughout the OS. I clicked something, I got results. Things worked. They worked consistently and as expected.

Then, as soon as 10.6 came along, I became concerned. Sure everything moved faster...when it moved or when I could find it. Why did Quicktime become nothing more than a viewer/recorder? I kept QT7 for literally as long as the most recent OS could support it. I always had two versions of iMovie because when I got the one that was released with SL, simple functions just BROKE and were never fixed. Simple things, broken for no reason. Why add complexity to the Finder? Leopard Finder was perfect, for what it was. I'd rather have the Finder do what I want, what I expect, and how I expect it than to have the few conveniences that came with SL.

I would rather have a car with NO auto-driving function than one that ONLY works on a sunny day, with freshly painted lines, with no road patches or rumble strips or tar snakes.

SL had so many micro-bugs that I always had a Leopard partition on my MBP. When I had to burn a CD or format certain drives, there was NO option to get it done in SL so I would switch over. These bugs have yet to be fixed. I'm not kidding. Mavericks, Mojave, Catalina, Sierra, High Sierra etc. still have the same bugs that prevent certain Disk Utility functions that worked in Leopard! Hell, even when I tried to burn a CD in 2015 I had to dig up a Leopard machine! Partitioning a certain drive didn't work in Catalina so I had to use an older machine just a few months back.

HELL, I specifically remember being upset with how adding Siri killed the simple voice commands of the Music player on the iPhone/iPod because the simple commands did more than even Siri can! Of course, the function was limited to music and asking what time it is, but at least they worked!

I can not stand "moving for the sake of moving". Some people judge progress by how far they've moved. I judge progress by the DIRECTION they've moved. Since Apple started it's yearly cycle of all of its products, things have really turned south. I'm keeping an iPhone with TouchID and a hand-sized form factor to the bitter end. I didn't agree to this size-war or collecting lenses on a phone. If Apple could exercise patience and run one OS for at least TWO years while developing the next, I'd have that much more confidence in upgrading. I'm not talking "tick, tock", I mean HOLD THE LINE until things get worked out. Leopard was that OS.

Sorry, I just have to rant every time I think about SL and what happened since.

I'm hopefully paving new roads for people that are restricted to or simply choose to use 10.5. Every hurdle that Leopard has is bandaged by moving to Snow Leopard for 90% of my search results on Google. That makes Leopard users a marginalized group. Rather than solving the issue or receiving assistance, they're simply told to stop living THEIR truth and "go with the norm." I even asked for support from a certain popular modder/developer and his suggestion was "Just move to Snow Leopard, it's so much better."

I'm taking your information and seriously considering it. I was just using SL for a few things the other day and I have to admit there is so much to gain by moving, but I have to be certain that I exterminate the niggles. Basically, I will switch to Snow Leopard if, after sufficient testing, I do not say to myself "well it worked on Leopard" even once. From past experience I have very very little faith that that is the case, but I'm willing to give things a fair try.


Everything you listed will go into my main write up and even opens more avenues of exploration as I go.

I'm hoping to form some sort of repository for Leopard support. I've cruised and searched and scoured for 10.5 versions of things, and I want to save everybody that comes after me from the same grind. (Searching Google for anything Leopard ALWAYS returns Snow Leopard. Man, I hate the name Snow "Leopard" every time I see it now). If I can find a server to archive what I find, that would be ideal. Chances are, though, that the best I can do is provide direct links and hope the dev doesn't remove the file. I will have a personal archive, though, to prevent things being lost to time.

For instance: anybody have Black Magic Disk Speed Test for Leopard? I remember it did exist. Oh, that's right. We switched to the App Store, so now volumes and volumes of data and applications are purged without a trace.

All of those moments will be lost in time, like farts in wind.
 

zedex

macrumors 6502
Oct 21, 2018
312
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Perth, WA
Hallelujah!! Everything started going sideways when Apple decided we should have a new OS every 12-18 months. I will never understand this strategy. Basically no possibility of a final stable bug-free release before they push out a [rarely] 'new' and [never] 'improved' version. It's definitely been a struggle to stay loyal.

You have made me very eager to try Leopard but it looks like that's an impossible dream for 5,1 owners :/
 
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hwojtek

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Jan 26, 2008
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Of course there is no work-around with the firmware constraint, and I know exactly who to come to should I find that Leopard will work on Westmere!
Flash it to 5,1, install Mojave to get the rest of firmware updates and you're set to go back to Leopard.
 

zedex

macrumors 6502
Oct 21, 2018
312
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Perth, WA
I thought the 5,1 shipped with Snow Leopard - making 10.6 the earliest possible OS X release we would ever be able to install.......?
 
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